2017, NEW PERSPECTIVES ... [EN] [FR]

Thank you very much for the update, Christophe & Team!

Merci !! ..

Merci pour les informations !!!

Thank you Audrey.

Seems like there is some hope ...

Interesting option =)

I hope there will be skillful, active and motivated members in our community, who indeed are capable to step into these rather big shoes. There are many issues to solve, like how to filter SPAM, how to control the payments etc.

So, I don't want to sound pessimistic, but even one month more is very very short time to get things sorted.

A full update from the Ipernity team as to critical issues (business model, technical details, finances) would provide much greater insight into the magnitude of the challenge involved. Unlike with new ventures, Ipernity has some real advantages from its 10-year existence that can and should be leveraged.

For what it's worth, some of the issues you cited e.g., financial control policies can readily be drawn from templates that have been developed from best practices. So, once a community management team is identified/developed, some of these details can be expedited. There is also a range of secure online payment solutions available should Ipernity switch from its present approach.

The logistics would still need to be worked out between Ipernity's current team and the community management team. Delegation of responsibilities to break the vital tasks into manageable components would facilitate the effort.

Hopefully, the challenges involved are surmountable and will be overcome.

Sounds promising. Looking forward for more information. Much work to do in very short time.
My Tip: also involve the veterans / now often dormant members here. The keyword is 'communication'and a personal aproach will do well
(I think the lack of communication (since 2011?) is one of the (or main?) reasons why ipernity lost it's wonderful community)
Success!!!

I strongly agree about the involvement of the veteran members and the critical importance of regular, timely, and open communication. Such communication is essential to growing and helping keep the community vibrant.

Let's not give up the hope!*** Thank you for the information!

Thanks for the update - I am hoping that something even more positive develops ...
The discussions can bear fruit, it seems.

Squee!!!! I am so excited at this small bit of hope. Ipernity really is the best out there for photo hosting and I do not want it to go away.

Thank you for the information, Audrey ...

If we manage to save the site in these times it can be a big news and it will draw more people to Ipernity,just what we need. (of course one who will pay for it)

The group www.ipernity.com/group/2260604 "Proposals regarding Ipernity saving"

Currently [at 1421 GMT on 10 Jan 2016] this group has just over 12% of Club membership enrolled ...

3 + 6 + 369 = 378

and there are a number who have joined and then left, or who are at their groups limit ...

So, 15% of "club" would be 450 members ...

Thanks, thank you for this new opportunity.

Thank you very much for this information ! And thanks for some hope !

Great to finally see glimmer of hope, albeit a very, very faint one and I thank you all for providing it to us! :)

However, if such a partnership is to have any hope of success I cannot stress enough the importance of communicating in an open, honest and timely manner. All too often this last year or so I believe this has not happened and it has had a terrible impact on the community.

I also believe that no matter how committed people like myself are to working with you to ensure the long term future of the site, much more will be required from Team Ipernity if we are to succeed ... such a joint venture in itself will not solve all of the problems we might face, but at least it is a start and one which hopefully many will rally.

Who know, this news may even encourage those that have left especially over the last couple of months to come back! :)

They said they will post another article in a few days with additional info,then its probably time to inform all members with an email from Team directly what is happening,what we know,what we dont know and where we are going.

Thank you for this glimmer of hope ☆♡☆

Christophe, Audrey and ipernity team.
Thank you for the update, for not giving up and for listening to us!
A little but of hope for the continuation of the best photo-sharing site currently in existence!
Best wishes, Andy

Zarte Hoffnung keimt - wie schön...
Tender hope germinates - how beautiful...

Thankyou !

We DO need better communication.. we feel ignored on many levels. Even if you post that you have no news.. it is still staying in touch.

This is a faint hope.. and is at least a glimmer of light. . I do agree with Paul (autofantasia) that this is a start...

We never give up hope!!!
Miracles do not happen overnight..but they can happen ;))))

je suis de l'avis de Pam ! c'est très peu ce que vous nous donner ! d'autant plus que beaucoup ont désertés le site ou ferme !
espérons que cet espoir ne sera pas vain !
bonne journée et meilleurs voeux à tous !
@ps: c'est vrai que certain sur ce site se donne du mal pour que notre site ne ferme pas ses portes je les salue et ils ont tout mon respect ! mais tâcher à l'avenir de ne pas nous laisser dans le vague et donnez nous des nouvelles assez souvent ! plutôt que de nous ignorer
merci

Merci @ngélique pour cette bonne nouvelle que nous attentions tous, j'espère que Ipernity va continuer à vivre encore longtemps grâce aux bonnes volontés que j'encourage vivement. Je vous souhaite une très bonne année pour 2017 et que Ipernity ne ferment pas. C'est un site très convivial où il fait bon venir et retrouver des amis qui datent depuis 9 ans pour moi. Bon courage et surtout tenez-nous au courant comme le suggère @ngélique.

Merci beaucoup.
Je suis tout à fait d'accord avec Angélique.:
Tenez nous au courant, svp.
On respecte votre travail, respectez notre foi !
A bientôt, je l'espère.
Jose

Christophe, Audrey et al,
merci beaucoup pour la première bonne nouvelle de 2017 !!

Let's hope this works (although I'm not very optimistic).

Thank you for this update. I greatly appreciate it.

As Ipernity is a well-developed platform, it should be possible to put together and implement a solid plan (resources/technical aspects) that would allow Ipernity to transition from its current state to community management.

This site has advantages--a core base of people, is a "known entity", and has attributes that make it distinct. All of those are important advantages. Many entities facing challenge often lack a loyal customer base, product/service that stands out from competitors, etc. The key is to effectively leverage those attributes to make it through the transition and, later to reinforce them to assure that they are sustained.

Hopefully, 30-40 days will be sufficient to bring the community management concept to fruition. Barring substantial debt, operating gap, or other major issues, it can be done with a combination of good faith and serious effort..

The bottom line: People should not abandon hope for Ipernity.

ben detto, sono perfettamente d'accordo su tutto.
Ma soprattutto noi tutti "non abbandoniamo ipernity" !

Thank you, Nora.

I believe it's of paramount importance for members not to abandon Ipernity. Staying with Ipernity can increase prospects for, first saving the site, and later, growing it to sustainability. Departures will magnify the degree of challenge involved.

Finally, I wish you a great 2017.

merci Christophe Audrey,, et vive 2017 tous ensemble, ,,,il est vrai que beaucoup ont quitté rapidement le site,, c'est dommage,,,

Il faut continuer d'y croire car Ipernity c'est trop Magnifique pour en voir la disparition…. Merci de vos encourageantes informations !

This makes my day. Thank you, Team, and those community members cited. Ipernity is an idea eminently worth saving.

Thank you for the update

FYI, I sent something about twentythree.net (and their 23hq.com fossil photo site) by mail to the helpdesk, and also detailed somehow in the discussion at www.ipernity.com/group/2260604/discuss/185572

Thank you for this information and effort.

As an Ipernity Club Member who loves the site, I appreciate all the efforts that are being made to save Ipernity..

A quick look at TwentyThree suggests a measure of caution is in order. As the company is private, I can't comment too much on the possible alignment between its core business and Ipernity, even as it has a small bare-bones photo hosting site.

Based on limited financial information available via Hoover's, the company has just under $5 million in annual revenue and net income of approximately $60,000. Its net worth was estimated at just under $130,000. All figures are in U.S. dollars. The financial margin for error might be too small for the company to make a commitment to Ipernity.

Further, the company is a subsidiary. Its parent company is Bootstrapping ApS (also private). As TwentyThree is a subsidiary, that might mean that the parent would need to buy into the proposal. That would require additional time before any decision is made.

Personally, I like the idea of pursuing Ipernity community management much better. Under that scenario, one would be dealing with a base of loyal members who appreciate and value Ipernity and everything it has to offer. TwentyThree might not come to the table with such a perspective. As is typical with joint ventures and/or acquisitions, it might want to undertake a due diligence effort, which could consume time beyond February. This would be especially likely given TwentyThree's position as a subsidiary.

Thank you for informing us about this which is good to hear.
It seems that our efforts are reaping a harvest, and that this Unique site may still be saved.

MercI Audrey et Christophe
En accord avec Angélique.
Tenez nous au courant de l'évolution

Meilleurs voeux !

Merci beaucoup d'avoir fait le point !! Nous continuons d'y croire très fort !!
Tous mes meilleurs voeux, Audrey et Christophe et longue vie à Ipernity !!!

Ich kann dir nur zustimmen Marie-Claire. I hope very much. Mnay greetings Gisela

Good to hear of some hope, thanks for the efforts of all; lets hope Ipernity can have a new Spring and blossom even more, best wishes to all!

Moltíssimes gràcies a tota la comunitat per mantenir l'esperança en que és possible mantenir el lloc, i moltíssimes gràcies als que amb la seva dedicació i idees faran, n'estic segur, que el lloc continuï, i sigui un model de referència.

This is good news about a dear online friend.

Very uplifting news. Thanks indeed for the update.

Different people have mentioned problems with SPAM on Ipernity. I have never seen anything nor experienced any problems. What form has it taken and how serious has it been?

Merci pour ces bonnes nouvelles. Cela donne envie de se battre pour faire vivre ce site que nous aimons et qui en vaut la peine.

Christophe, Audrey et al,

Thank you for the information and the obvious continuued effort to find a way to keep ipernity going. It's your efforts that have drawn such a varied passionate photo loving crowd. As a group we may sound critical at times, but it's only because you have given us something worth continuing to strive for. We await the next news.

And I send a HUGE THANK YOU out to Claus-Peter, Paul (autofantasia), Eric Desjours, and, William Sutherland, for getting their (and our) voices heard. I totally love the idea of community management - I will look at links to see what I can do.

Obrigada...

Thank you so much for being open minded about this. You have created a wonderful community and it would be a shame to end it. I wish you the best. Hooray for Team Ipernity and the community members working to save it.

Ipernity is a fantastic photosharing site. The majority of club members have offered to increase the club fee by at least 3 time the present fee. A three times increase in club membership is a great increase in income. Also so many members have shown interest in becoming shareholders again an increase in funds to IP. However what would this achieve if IP will not disclose the cost of hosting this site. If you are a member a golf club a tennis club or any club and are paying fees you are entitled to know the income and outgoing before commitment to any contract. That's my opinion. I hope IP survives but I will wait for the info required before committing .

Hope still exists thanks to those who are working hard to save IP and to the members who have not jumped ship, perhaps others will return.

Thank you Team ipernity for the update and for the sliver of hope ipernity will be saved. Thanks also to Paul, William and Claus-Peter for all their fine efforts.

I want to be thrilled about this news, I really do, but I am not at all sure about this. My concerns echo Tess's: I know most paying members said they'd be willing to pay three times the current cost of membership, but what will it actually cost to run ipernity each year, and will membership at three times the current rate charged be enough to cover it? What is the minimum number of paying members needed just to keep ipernity afloat year after year?

Before we jump into this with both feet, we all need to understand what we are getting into before we sign up to support ipernity.

Totally agree Valerie. we need the financial information on the running costs of Ipernity before we can realistically develop a plan that would make IP a continuing viable investment for the foreseable future..

When we first heardof possible impending financiel problems i was quick to pay in advance for two more years, at the same time I gave my son a two year club membership, he already wasa free rider.
I likewise made many suggestions, only one was ever acknowledged and replied to many months later informong me that Advertising was illegal under French Law which is totally untrue. Most Media in France is Sponsored.

Danke an alle, die sich um den Erhalt aktiv bemühen! Wir geben die Hoffnung nicht auf und machen weiter!

Merci pour les informations!

Une belle perspective d'avenir et un espoir renouvelé,l'issue est probable et la survie d'iper
est résolument certaine ...Gardons espoir.

There is 100.000 accounts/members and only 3000 clubers,first few steps should be easy,one fat email to all members with new policy,no free lunch!
New members have one month free to settle in,look around,after that or you are in or out.
There are free sites,this one is not free anymore,i dont care for a snake in your wallet,get rid of it.

ha ha ha you are witty.... in any case I agree: all accounts have to pay - but more than now!

l'embêtant c'est que comme ça vous n'allez pas avoir 100.000 "clubers" mais tout au plus 10.000 les autres, en particulier tous ceŭ des pays de l'Est, d'Afrique, de Chine, et autres continents (bref la moitié des espérantistes déjà, qui ont grandement aidé ipernity à démarrer, et ont effectué la traduction du site en chinois), qui n'ont pas les moyens de payer vont partir, et pas ma d'autres aussi. Vous allez rester dans un petit club c'est le cas de le dire de gens cartedecréditisés des pays riches.
C'est une option.....

Exactement Roland, c'est pour cela que le travail n'est pas évident. Il faut identifier où commencent et finissent les "abus" qui ont mené ipernity à la brankrupt.
Si l'on ne fait rien tout s'écroule mais cela ne nous empêche pas de vouloir faire les choses correctement en tenant compte de chacun.

excellente politique ! :)

Fingers and toes crossed here in Oregon, USA!

Merci pour vos vœux et ces informations qui me donnent un peu d'espoir . Ipernity est un site que j'apprécie et ce serait une grande déception de devoir le quitter pour cause de fermeture .
Meilleurs vœux pour vous et pour la survie du site grâce à la bonne volonté et à la motivation de quelques uns de ses membres .

Doesnt sound very optimistic in my ears...
Under this circumstance I cant renew my paying membership which ended in december after nine years because of - well - there is still no info about the future of ipernity - just consolation to later info. This doesnt help to get new hope, which I want to get back.
Some parts are missing in the past of ipernity, and one of these was clear communication (others was advertising and marketing, but thats not the point now) between you and us. So wheres the mail to all ipernity members to inform them at least about the current situation? "Communication" (of nothing) in this blog isnt enough in this situation, the situation has to be to communicate to all members, not just the ones who are reading this blog.
Maybe there is someone out there who might like be the key to the future, but havent heard there is an issue because you dont communicate at least with your own members? And we dont talk about the economy around. If I talk about ipernity with others the most common reaction I got back was "iperwho"? Well, marketing.

And I dont see how things should change in general just because there is one month more time - as there was enough time in the past which wasnt used very well (and posting one members photo a day at your facebook site isnt the key which I was talking about when I am talking about marketing).
Other groups are trying to find a solution for the current issues, but have stop it for the moment because of the unclear situation - www.ipernity.com/group/winclub f.e. - nobody wants to win a club membership for a site which may be closing end of january (and now maybe in february, but again, this wont change anything, its just a few more days of delaying in an unclear situation).

Communication? Take a look at twitter.com/ipernity f.e. and re-think about how your communication is looking. 656 Follower? Come on... Every quarter a tweet, 617 tweets in ten years on Twitter? Thats how your communication is looking. There isnt any communication.
www.instagram.com/ipernity - really? Nothing, complete emptyness - great impress of ipernity at a photo community which was widely used by photographers which might be interested to use a real photo platform? Complete fail in _free_ self - marketing.

So please start at least to communicate with your members. Open and clear. And not just in your blog.

Many of the comments here provide possible insight into how things evolved as they did. Very clearly, good, effective, and regular communication will be essential going forward. Organized marketing and an active Social Media presence will be critical to promoting growth. But that's still in a future that has not yet been secured. The most urgent task now is averting a shutdown of the site. If that can be achieved, future possibilities become available.

I understand the frustration of many and empathize with those who are in anguish over the Ipernity's current situation. I love the site, its international community, and its diverse range of creative works. I believe its shutdown would be an irreparable loss.

Challenging as things appear, the end has not yet come. Instead, there still is a ray of hope.

Personally, I hope all club members will refrain from taking premature flight. Doing so would create a self-fulfilling prophecy or death spiral that could only hasten Ipernity's end. Doing so could make a still possibly avoidable outcome an unavoidable tragedy. Instead, even as it might require a measure of patience and a dose of courage, club members should stay with Ipernity during its most difficult moment. If you haven't already done so, please join www.ipernity.com/group/2260604 to stand united with those seeking to save the Ipernity we treasure. We are still one Ipernity community.

I realize that such steadfastness in the face of great uncertainty won't be easy for some, but such courage might make a real difference. It is not for nothing that Roman playwright Plautus observed, "Courage in danger is half the battle." Let's see if we can take on our "half" of the battle.

Well "said"!
I can only approve wholeheartedly all that you have so clearly written here, Don!

So true, Don !

Thank you so much, Don, I think the same, first we have to stay together....

Thank you Don, for a well put statement - that I totally agree with. I am staying, participating, enjoying ipernity. Already joined the group to stand united.

You are right!

As said above:
The most urging point is to keep the site running if Ipernity S.A. closes down. If the site is closed, the members will never ever return. So we need a legal entity (what form ever) to collect money (payments/fees and donations) to cover the running costs for - let's say - one year.
In that time a solution has to be found, how to transfer assets from Ipernity S.A. to a users organisation (regardless the legal form of this organisation).
After then, the site can be evolved and maybe rebuilt/renewed - probably by volunteers using an open oder cc licensed code.
So the really urging problem is to keep the site running to provide time for solving legal, technical and organisational problems.
Christophe as CEO is first of all obliged towards the shareholders and not towards Ipernity's customers (that's us ;-)). I agree that communiction is crucial - but the team cannot decide to run the business any longer if there's not enough turnover to cover the costs. There are attempts to keep Ipernity alive, but they can't do that in public.

Agree.

Good points Kiezkickerde,we came to a wall now and its last chance to change this if we start to communicate,that email to all users is very important,then we can really see is there any community here left who is willing to continue or its just 3000 people,maybe even less.

What i find most annoying is that all this is now happening when this giant (flickr) is slowly falling and we are so close of getting new members,right time to make new platform with only paying members and get ready for influx.

Merci pour vos informations! En fait je n'ai pas bien compris toutes les démarches possibles pour sauver IP mais je reste intéressé dans la possibilité de mes moyens (financiers mais de temporels aussi). De toute manière je pense que ce site doit faire le possible pour continuer a exister grâce à l'aide de la communauté aussi.

Merci à tous ceux d'entre vous qui se sont engagés pour trouver des solutions viables!

Thank you for your informations! I didn't understand all the steps which are necessary and important to save IP, however I still am interested in the measure of my possibilities (economical but also temporal). In any case I think that this site shall do everything is possible to stay alive also with the aid of the community.

Thanks to all of you who tried to find walkable solutions!

So glad to hear!

let's go on hoping !
thank you ...

Merci Christophe & the Team, pour cette nouvelle .. !
l'ESPOIR que IP sera sauvé ne m'a jamais quitté..!
cela se confirme...tout doucement..pas de précipitations où de mauvaises
réactions et vous y arriverez..., j'en suis persuadé
Comptez sur moi à ma manière pour essayé d'aller rechercher ceux qui sont partis,
courage, bonne entente dans l'équipe bon travail et tout ira bien
Cordiales salutations d'un des membres qui croit le plus à vous..!

Que de bonnes nouvelles ! Nous allons continuer d'espérer pour q Ipernity vive et vivra le plus longtemps possible ! Et j'y crois très fort ! Merci pour les informations

Great news!

Über jeden Funken Hoffnung über das Weiterbestehen von Ipernity freue ich mich.
Ich werde abwarten.

Absolutely Yes,great article,in the meantime Yahoo was renamed and things are getting more clearer every day,we need 1 year just like you said.
I was researching a lot other image sharing sites,not one looks good like IP,and a lot of them is just a question of time when they will close their doors.
Where to go?

This is really a rare chance to become one of a kind community,where every time you pay your club fee youre not only paying for yourself but also for the hive,more working bees..stronger hive.

et l'espoir renaît...
MERCI LA TEAM !

merci pour cette information positive !
meilleurs Voeux 2017 ... et un bel avenir pour Ipernity !

Good news! Hopefully it will be the forerunner of even better news.

I agree with Don and Boarischer Krautmo.
While some of us are doing some background work at the moment it is most important for us as a community to stay here, re-activate ourselves and dormant "veterans", donate new memeberships etc,
Many of us put energy into ipernity because we agree 100% with what Don said: "I love the site, its international community, and its diverse range of creative works. I believe its shutdown would be an irreparable loss. "
To keep the site and our community running is anyway fun; we should enjoy it to be here and to share photos, comments and ideas. So please let us not talk ourselves down. I understand the frustration of many people but let's turn it into positive energy.
It is already a great achievement of this community that the original verdict over this site is being revised and costructive ways forward are being evaluated.

☆A glimmer of hope☆ ...
I hope and shine with you ☼
.⋱ ⋮ ⋰
⋯ ◯ ⋯
.⋰ ⋮ ⋱ ‧ ‧ ‧ ‧ ‧ ‧ ‧ ‧ ‧⁀˅⁀
i have just bought a new Pro !!! (((•‿•)))

How did you manage thet, as far as I know the paying in function is disabled.

Here....
www.ipernity.com/club

Strange, they've re-activated it not that I need it as I am already paid up until October 1 2018.

Good news! Hopefully, very good news! Thank you for publishing it.

Tout doucement mais sûrement !!! IP sera sauvé ! j'y crois!
Meilleurs voeux !

Thank you for the update, I do hope that ipernity can continue! Will look and wait.

Der eine Monat bringt überhaupt nichts. Ich habe hier rund 15000 Bilder verteilt auf rund 200 Alben aus meinem Hobbybereich liegen.
Rund die Hälfte der Alben und auch etwa 5500 der Bilder habe ich weltweit auf allen möglichen Plattformen verlinkt.
Als die Meldung kam, dass hier geschlossen wird habe ich zuerst einmal ausgerechnet, wie lange ich brauche um alle Bilder woanders hochzuladen. Herausgekommen sind etwa 500 Stunden. Also habe ich sofort angefangen, die Bilder woanders hochzuladen. Meine erste Überlegung war Fotki, die haben aber mittlerweile einen ausschließlich Bezahlmodell und ich kann nicht mal ausprobieren, wie es dort funktioniert. Soviel zu den Überlegungen, hier ein Bezahlmodell einzuführen. Auch ich habe hier zunächst 6 Monate den kostenlosen Service benutzt und dabei alle Funktionen ausprobiert bevor ich hier die kostenpflichtige Variante genommen habe.
Letztlich habe ich mich jetzt für Flickr entschieden, auch wenn ich den Laden nicht ausstehen kann. Aber es muss erst einmal weiter gehen. Und eine Option bis Ende Januar oder Ende Februar ist keine Option mit Perspektive, da müssten mindestens ein bis zwei Jahr angeboten werden.
Für mich wäre ein höherer Preis hier kein Problem, ich bin der Meinung, dass das Angebot hier mindestens das Doppelte bis zum Dreifachen wert ist. Mehr aber auch nicht.

Ich bleibe gerne hier weil das wirklich die beste Plattform ist, auch wenn Sie einige Schwächen hat. Aber ich treffe auch Vorsorge damit ich aufgestellt bin, wenn hier abgeschaltet wird.
Seit fünf Wochen nutze ich nun jede freie Minute um meine Bilder als Sicherung für alle verlinkten Bilder bei Flickr hochzuladen, über 7000 habe ich bis jetzt geschafft. Damit habe ich zumindest eine fertige Sicherung für die verlinkten Bilder und Alben. Der nächste Schritt ist die Veränderung aller Verlinkungen von Ipernity auf Flickr.
Und in dem Moment, wo ich mit der Änderung der Verlinkungen anfange wird für mich hier automatisch auch das Ende eingeläutet.

Die unsichere Situation hier sorgt dafür, dass der Laden langsam ausblutet. Entschuldigung, ich glaube, wir reiten ein totes Pferd.

und wenn nächstes Jahr dann Flickr abgeschaltet wird?

Ich verstehe nicht ganz, weshalb man auf Gedeih und Verderb zu einem anderen Laden geht, nur um seine Bilder zu sichern...hat man die nicht auf anderen Speichermedien??? Geht es hier nicht auch ein wenig darum, andere Fotos anzusehen? 7000 Bilder bei Flickr geschafft...wofür????
Massenhochladen wegen was denn? Muß ich wohl auch nicht verstehen ;)

Hallo Tanja, das ist doch ganz einfach zu verstehen: Manche verwechseln ein Fotoforum eben mit einer Cloud. Da wird hochgeladen, was das Zeug hält - statt eine qualitative Auswahl zu treffen, und nur diese zur fotografischen Diskussion zu stellen.

Hast Du Dir mal angesehen, was der Martin veröffentlicht hat? Es geht ihm offensichtlich gar nicht um "Fotografie", sondern lediglich um "Abbildung" - also die Dokumentation verschiedenster Situationen/Objekte/Motive auf fotografisch eher schlichte Weise.

Merci pour cette bonne nouvelle que nous attentions depuis si longtemps, j'espère que Ipernity va continuer à vivre encore longtemps grâce aux bonnes volontés que j'encourage vivement. Je vous souhaite une très bonne année pour 2017 et que Ipernity ne ferment pas. C'est un site très convivial où il fait bon venir et retrouver des amis qui datent depuis 9 ans pour moi. Bon courage et surtout tenez-nous au courant comme le suggère @ngélique.